Def Leppard on the ‘Melodic Mayhem’ of ‘Pyromania’ & Why Taylor Swift Is ‘Bigger Than the Beatles and the Stones Combined’

Def Leppard’s first two albums vaulted five boys from working-class Sheffield, England to the vanguard of the new wave of British heavy metal. On 1983’s Pyromania, the quintet set their sights even higher. “There’s no point in trying to appeal to half the population,” bassist Rick Savage tells Billboard. “Why not appeal to 100% of the population?”

With ace producer Robert John “Mutt” Lange back in the studio after 1981’s High ‘n’ Dry, Def Leppard crafted a technically sophisticated album of hard chugging yet melodic songs that catapulted them onto radio waves and stages usually reserved for pop stars. Prior to Pyromania, the music industry had been reluctant to invest in metal; an article in the April 14, 1984, Billboard quoted a radio executive who described “a longhaired kid wearing a torn Def Leppard shirt” as “the kind of person you wouldn’t want in your store.”

After Pyromania, radio and record labels couldn’t ignore the growing genre any longer. Pyromania went all the way to No. 2 on the Billboard 200 (soaring past their previous peak of No. 38), produced two Mainstream Rock Airplay No. 1s (“Photograph” for six weeks and “Rock of Ages”) and gave the band three top 30 Billboard Hot 100 hits (the aforementioned singles plus “Foolin’”).

The album’s blockbuster success — which also eventually included a diamond RIAA certification for over 10 million units shipped — paved the way for the pop-metal crossover of bands like Bon Jovi, Guns N’ Roses and Poison, and set Def Lep up for a long, fruitful career. In 2022, the still-active band became only the third group to notch a top 10 album on the Billboard 200 in every decade since the ‘80s.

Ahead of the 40th anniversary edition of Pyromania (out April 26), Savage and frontman Joe Elliott hopped on a Zoom call with Billboard to pull back the curtain on the making of the classic — as well as share thoughts on a former CMT Crossroads collaborator who has since become the biggest pop star in the world.

Pyromania had the same producer, Mutt Lange, as the album that came out before it, High ‘n’ Dry. Even so, that one feels a bit rawer compared to Pyromania. Was it a conscious decision to give the album a cleaner production?

Rick Savage: Yeah, absolutely, from day one. I mean, I don’t know if I’d call it clean. What we really set out to do was create this a wall of sound. High ‘n’ Dry was very much in your face and very aggressive. It was our first album with Mutt and he got us ultra-focused in creating a rock song. With Pyromania, we wanted to take a lot of elements of that but develop the harmonies, banks of vocals, banks of guitars, just everything very multitracked and very orchestral. And I think that’s the biggest thing, apart from the songs, which were obviously more developed and had a lot more nuances to them. Basically, the progression from High ‘n’ Dry is creating a wall of melodic mayhem, if you like.

Joe Elliott: Yeah, that’s a good way of putting it. The obvious observations for those two records is that High ‘n’ Dry sounds like a band playing live and Pyromania sounds like a band in the studio — à la Pink Floyd, à la the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper — that sat down to craft some songs. They’re not just, “Okay, hit the record button and play it live.” That’s what High ‘n’ Dry sounds like — even though it actually wasn’t, because we did that in bits and bobs. But it has that impression.

Technology was starting to change. Recording studios in 1981 were pretty much the same as they were in 1979. Recording studios in 1982, ’83, there’s new bits of equipment coming in on a daily basis that can do things: synthesizers, drum machines. Drum machines were a big part of the music industry, with The Human League and New Order. We were using this kind of stuff, but most rock bands weren’t. And the great thing about having Mutt on your side is he’d be very enthusiastic about saying, “Well, why not? Why can’t a rock band…” and then fill in whatever phrase you want. It would be like [why can’t a rock band] “use that technology that these arty pop bands are using within the field of rock and see where it gets you”? We didn’t want to make High ‘n’ Dry 2.

I was looking through the Billboard archives, and an article from 1984 postulated that a lot of Def Leppard’s appeal was connected to youth. Other metal acts at the time – Ozzy, Motörhead, whatever – were in their thirties, but you guys were a bit younger and maybe more attractive to girls. Is that something you were aware of back in the day?

Savage: God, yeah, absolutely. It was always 50-50, and in some cases, actually more girls than boys. There is a youthfulness to it, but it’s the music actually — we were just slightly different from the standard heavy metal, if you like. You mentioned Motörhead and Ozzy — two fantastic acts, don’t get me wrong, but they were very definitely of a certain sound. We were trying to expand on that and appeal to a wider range.

We want to appeal to as many people as we can. There’s no point in trying to appeal to half the population — why not appeal to 100% of the population? All of a sudden, from Pyromania onwards, so many women and girls came to our shows. And it’s just testament to the actual songs, because they’re the things that get people first interested, and then everything else follows from that.

Elliott: We are a weird band in that respect, because we’ve always wanted to be honest with people. When you are five kids from Sheffield and you want to get up on stage and play rock music, there’s an oomph to it. It’s got a feeling that I don’t think — with the greatest respect to, say, the Human League, when we opened for them one night in their embryonic stage, they’re behind plexiglass sheets with keyboards. It doesn’t really have that Townshend windmill factor to it. It’s always fun to play the rock stuff, you know, “Highway to Hell” or “Tie Your Mother Down.”

But honestly, when we were in the factory rehearsing before we even played our first gig, we’d be talking about music way different than what we were playing. Me and Sav instantly bonded over the fact that we loved Kate Bush. Or the first two Peter Gabriel albums, which we were listening to way more than Motörhead. I don’t think Motörhead ever sat up a rehearsal room and had a discussion about “Wuthering Heights,” whereas we would. We always wanted it to be a glam rock, power guitar thing: Bowie, Slade, Sweet, Queen. That’s the fun element.

That sophistication is especially apparent on “Photograph,” which is very well constructed. Speaking of, I know “Bringin’ on the Heartbreak” got some MTV play, but “Photograph” was a huge staple for the channel. Was that on your minds at the time, using this new marketing tool to hit a wider audience?

Savage: I don’t think so. It kind of happened in reverse. We weren’t really trying to market anything or become influenced by the latest media thing. We just got picked up from it, and we were fortunate in that respect. Before Pyromania was released, we knew that videos were coming to the fore. MTV was getting more and more popular, so it was just an obvious thing to do. We made two videos, one for “Photograph” and one for “Rock of Ages.” That was done in December of ’82, the album didn’t come out till early ‘83.

Elliott: Yeah, there’s no doubt that when we were making the album, the last thing on our mind was worrying about, “Oh, we got to make videos.” The one that really started to get a bit of traction was “Bringin’ on the Heartbreak.” In London, we’d start receiving the odd phone call from management in New York saying, “Oh, yeah, they played ‘Bringin’ on the Heartbreak’ 40 times on MTV last week.” “Okay, interesting.” Then you three weeks later you get another message saying that High ‘n’ Dry started selling again. Three weeks later, you get another message: “Bloody hell, it’s selling 50,000 a week.” By the end of the year, we’re getting this message that it’s gone gold, so we know that this is not going gold because the radio — it’s gone gold because of MTV. We were just getting little messages as we’re [making] the [Pyromania] album. It’s like a mosquito in your ear, like, “Yeah, okay, fine.”

“Bringin’ on the Heartbreak’ knocked on the door, but “Photograph” kicked it off its f–king hinges. It was the combination of radio — the song was absolutely produced to sound good on FM, there’s no doubt, it was Mutt Lange’s job to do that — and the video. By the time we got to America, we’re getting our head around the fact that this MTV thing is really a big deal. By the time we got on tour, the first thing we would do is check into the hotel and try to find it. It’s like, you can’t believe that there’s this 24-hour rock video channel — because as kids we had 30 minutes of Top of the Pops on a Thursday and an hour of the [The Old Grey] Whistle Test if you were allowed to stay up to watch bearded musicians play bearded music. That’s when we really realized the value of it. When we were delivering the videos, it was on the advice of people going, “You got to do this.”

As you were saying about youth, because we were all 21, 22 years old, when somebody says, “You got to spend a day in Battersea Power Station shooting videos,” you go, “Great.” We learned after the fact that a lot of seasoned bands from the ‘70s were reluctant to do them, which is why a lot of videos by bands from the ‘70s that were presented in the ‘80s were crap. I think the only band that really grasped the nettle when they came back with a resurgence was Aerosmith. Really, they did a brilliant job with videos. But lots of other bands were like, “I don’t see why we’re having to do this.” We were the next generation, and started to realize, “This is almost as important as making the record.”

Speaking of TV and “Photograph,” fast forward about 25 years. You’re on CMT Crossroads with a very young Taylor Swift singing that song. Did you ever think, “This person is going to become the biggest pop star in the world?”

Savage: She was pretty big then, to be honest. It was unbelievable that somebody had such youth, but almost like an old head on young shoulders when she came to songwriting. It was actually quite eye-opening. It was great fun; it was a bit of a laugh. She’s quite popular now, isn’t she? But trust me, she was pretty popular then as well. I mean, not to the level she’s at now, obviously — but within the country scene she was as big as they came. It was a really great experience working with her and the band. She had a great band back then as well.

Elliott: We were together for a week in Nashville for rehearsals. We were just so very impressed with Taylor — because, as you know, the album 1989 is called that because that’s year she was born. So basically, in the womb, she was listening to Pyro and Hysteria, because her mom was a big fan. She was born to Def Leppard, basically. [Prior to CMT Crossroads] we saw this article where she said, “There’s only one band I would do Crossroads with,” and it was us. We were beyond flattered and management said, “We should get in touch with her management to see if she actually really means it.” And she did.

What impressed me the most was that when we got to the table of like, which songs we’re going to do, she wanted to do a lot of [Songs From the] Sparkle Lounge. I’m thinking, “She’s heard that song?” And then “Two Steps Behind” got pulled out, which wasn’t going to be suggested, but she says, “I want to do that one.”

It’s all very logical and all very organic. It really was. I got to sing “Love Story,” bits from the perspective of a guy. She was really enthusiastic and obviously a big fan. And we became fans of her. I think we’d all be lying if we said we knew she was going to become as big as she has because she’s actually become bigger than anything that’s ever been before. She’s probably bigger than The Beatles and The Stones combined, for her generation of fans. I’ll probably get lynched by some 75-year-old reading this, but it’s all relative.

Today it’s all about the streaming numbers and all that kind of stuff. There’s been a lot of massively successful bands, but she’s taken success to a level that is unheard of. It’s absolutely mad. It’s success beyond anything that anybody could have ever dreamed of, probably her herself. I’ve seen the Eras film and it’s astonishing what she’s done. I hope she works with us again one day. [Laughs.]

I’ve read that “Rock of Ages” has a back-masked message of “F—k the Russians” on it. I wanted to ask if that was true, and if so, what inspired that.

Savage: [Laughs.]

Elliott: There’s a lot of backwards stuff in the middle of the solo, because we had we discovered all these toys that could instantly do things backwards. This is what I was talking about with the technology. It was 1982, England was at war with Argentina over the Falklands, and there was the Cold War, which was always on the horizon. You know, you read in the paper, Brezhnev this, and whoever the American was in it, Reagan. You’d be reading about it and we were just jokingly saying things on the mic and would just turn it around backwards. And it wasn’t what you said, it was how it sounded backwards. It’s like, “That sounds really weird, shove it in the solo!” What was more important was how it sounded the other way around. In fairness, one of the words was “a—hole” backwards, and it just went really well within the melody of the solo, you know?

Savage: The song is so sparse and open. We needed cues as guitar players as to when we’re going to come in because we didn’t have a vocal at the time. It was very easy to get lost in, because we’re just playing it to a drum machine. A lot of the stuff was there as cues to when the next part was coming up, of which “gunter gleiben glauchen globen” was one of them. It was much like saying, “1-2-3-4, here comes the bridge” sort of thing. So yeah, there was a load of stuff going down on that particular song, just to keep us interested.

Elliott: Yeah, absolutely. Like you said, this was born out of cabin fever, because this was the first time that we’d been in a studio doing 22-hour days, six days, maybe seven days a week and we’re probably into month six or seven so you start to go a bit ’round the bend. You start doing crazy stuff. People always mock rock bands for being silly, but I’ve read so many articles about what you might call sophisticated artists doing stuff just as stupid because they had cabin fever. The Beatles, Clapton, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, just doing goofy s–t in the studio because it relieves the tension, relieves the boredom.